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post #1 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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unions and minimum wage-continuation

This is somewhat of a continuation of the "NLRB Ruling with Joint Employers" thread started by Wannabe in the general discussion, but it went a little sideways so we are taking it over here, because it is a great discussion to have. Trey, even though we strongly disagree, I appreciate your input , and at the end of the day we are still American brothers.

Now back to unions.

Trey has stated that unions were best in the 40's and 50's and that's when the middle class did very well with a good percentage of buying power and we should return to the collective bargaining of those days to restore the middle class. Have I got that basically right?

A couple side notes. I agree unions almost always get the workers better pay, and I do agree with Wannabe to abolish to minimum wage because it holds wages artificially down. Anyone that can do ANY job right is worth more than $7hr.

Yes, the middle class did well during the 40s and 50s, but then there's been a steady drop in union membership since about 1960-70. I think it's quite simple to explain.

The unions got too big, too greedy and too stupid. Over and over again they priced their labor rates right into Mexico. The number one driving reason for outsourcing labor is labor costs. As the union jobs went overseas it only stands to reason the union membership goes with it-there's the reason for the decline.

As I said in another post, workers must produce MORE than they take or the business will fail-100% of the time.

The union office in my area has a sign in a large parking lot says, "foreign vehicles must park in the back of the lot". Now I KNOW I'm talking about arrogant idiots! Guess what? (and no plug for Toyota, I drive a Ram) That Toyota pickup parked in the back has more American labor on it that the Chevy parked in the front. That's a fact.
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post #2 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 09:43 PM
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The claims made about union workers are more productive than non union is several things.
Laughable, clueless about how it works at union shops, or if he works at a union shop completely blind to how things work in the real world.


When I was OTR trucking the union shops always screwed off more, took more and many times longer smoke breaks........... I mean really.............1.5 hrs for your 3pm break? and then go home at 4:30????????
More than once I witnessed them screwing off for just over 7 hrs while I was waiting to load or unload. Wasting my time and the time of a lot of other truckers.
Then the last 45 mins of the day they'd slam and jam and do more work in 45 mins than they had the previous 7 plus hours.

Another time at a government facility I unloaded at I was told be a non union gov employee that many were the times when the union stooges would meet their daily unload quota and unload no further trucks because their quota was met. The only way they could get them to go over quota was if it was a national emergency.
Talk about wasting A LOT OF TIME.

I could go on and on.















Union workers are more productive my ass!!!!!!!!!!!!! Complete untruth.

Professionals are people who can do their job when they don't feel like it.
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post #3 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 03:52 PM
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The unions got too big, too greedy and too stupid. Over and over again they priced their labor rates right into Mexico. The number one driving reason for outsourcing labor is labor costs. As the union jobs went overseas it only stands to reason the union membership goes with it-there's the reason for the decline.
Ok lets say you're right. UNions got too big, greedy, etc... that they forced employers overseas. Lets say you're 100% correct. Ask yourself, why havent jobs been returning with the steady decline of unions. Your arguments are confusing. Ususally if something is bad, the more of that something makes things worse, and less of it makes then better. In the case of unions, the less union representation the more things gets worse. Unions have been pretty non existent in the private sector for at least 2 decades. This has not slowed the pace of jos going overseas. In fact it is UNIONS who have shown some success of using the collective bargaining process to bring jobs back to America. SO please expand further on this argument and explain why the steady of decline of unions has NOT resulted in the steady return of jobs, and why as unions decrease wages have as well.

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The union office in my area has a sign in a large parking lot says, "foreign vehicles must park in the back of the lot". Now I KNOW I'm talking about arrogant idiots! Guess what? (and no plug for Toyota, I drive a Ram) That Toyota pickup parked in the back has more American labor on it that the Chevy parked in the front. That's a fact.
Nice story. But I really dont go the route of swapping union vs non unions stories. Mainly because most cant be verified. Ive worked union and non union, and I think hands down union shops get it right. With non union shops its truly a roll of the dice. Usually the best non union workers are union workers who for whatever reason cant qualify for that union job. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the stories. But its really not fair to me, because if I tell and show documentation of my non union worker stories, some may get offended, which is really something I dont want to do. The sad part is that there are so many threads on this site bashing the work of non union hacks, you would think people would be more understanding of the stories I could tell. ut something tells me they wont, and Id be kick outta here fast.
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post #4 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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They didn't ship the jobs overseas because someone wanted to go on a cruise! They're gone because our labor rates, and our standard of living is among the highest in the world, not to mention a corporate tax rate highest in the world. The jobs are not coming back until it is more profitable to do business here instead of India, or China, or Mexico...


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post #5 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 04:34 PM
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Another time at a government facility I unloaded at I was told be a non union gov employee that many were the times when the union stooges would meet their daily unload quota and unload no further trucks because their quota was met. The only way they could get them to go over quota was if it was a national emergency.
Talk about wasting A LOT OF TIME.
Heres a good example I can use to show why I dont get it into the story telling matches. You seem to be implying that union guys still on the clock are refusing to work. Let me go back to basics. Union workers are not managers. In EVERY collective bargaining agreement there something called a Management Rights clause that is used to make clear as day the rights of managment.

Heres why I think this story is incomplete or just completely not true. The union worker is not a manager. A manager would have had the right to require the workers to return to work. Now normally hourly workers dont have quotas, so its odd when you say they met their quota. But lets say you're right and they have a quota. A Union workers only weapon is the contract. If management would have instructed the worker to return to work, that worker must comply. He could however file a grievance. In this case if the workers would have filed a grievance, what on earth could they grieve and how could they be made whole. They were asked to work while on the clock. There's nothing to grieve, as them working on the clock caused no one to not be whole, no matter if they had a quota or not. The only exception if they had a contract signed by management stating after quota is met no more work, while still on the clock. I would love to see that contract


When you're someone like me who has a pretty good knowlege of labor laws, union contracts, greivance and arbitration process etc... stories like this don't make sense to me, not because I like unions, but because they make no legal or contractual sense.



Union 001... Do whatever the manager tells you as long as your safety is not put at risk, then grieve it immediately.
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post #6 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Trey9007 View Post
Union 001... Do whatever the manager tells you as long as your safety is not put at risk, then grieve it immediately.
Non union 001 Do whatever the manager tells you as long as your safety is not put at risk, and don't cry about it.
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post #7 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 04:51 PM
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They didn't ship the jobs overseas because someone wanted to go on a cruise! They're gone because our labor rates, and our standard of living is among the highest in the world, not to mention a corporate tax rate highest in the world. The jobs are not coming back until it is more profitable to do business here instead of India, or China, or Mexico...


Most questions about most stuff can be answered by following the money trail. Whether it property preservation or politics, (except for the Donald)or even why that hot chick married that slob, follow the money to find your answer.
I asked it because you are contradicting your own argument. For example, read the last sentence in your first paragraph. Your argument has been that unions caused jobs to leave. Fine. Unions are now gone. But your sentence is stating that its still not more profitable to do business here.

So my question to you is, if the unions were the cause of it not being profitable and the unions are gone, why are the jobs still going over seas. Why is it still not more profitable Also, keep in mind that taxes are lower now than when unions were at their peak.

Walmart is the country's largest employer. They are non union. Yet they do most of their manufacturing over seas and require those who want to do business with them to have offices over seas as well. All the while, workers in this country support Walmart to no end. Ask yourself, do you honestly see those from the greatest generation doing something as stupid as the sh*t were doing now. Its just ridiculous.. Not only do we do stupid crap like this, we actually expect a different outcome.

Unions are gone, taxes are lower, and jobs are still overseas. Theres always a boogie man... But as GTX said before. "just look up".

People like to blame unions because when you hear about companies leaving theres some union fighting and declining to take cuts. But heres what people dont realixe. Hundreds if not thousands non union companies leave with no fan fare because there is no union there to make any newsworthy noise. This is the only difference. The fact is unions are the only people out here putting upward pressure on wages for American. Unfortunately, most American have taken the attitude that their time and effort is not worth much.

I would probably agree with you 100% if wages werent flat, while exec pay and profits were WAY up. Its cleary simple to me. American workers no longer have a seat at the table. Theres no one at the table whos sole job is to look out for our interest and have to answer for us. Therefore we get scraps, and when a few try to get more, the crab in barrel thing goes into effect.

Not only do we sit idle while our jobs leave, we feed the beast thats leading the way.
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post #8 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 04:55 PM
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Non union 001 Do whatever the manager tells you as long as your safety is not put at risk, and don't cry about it.
So if someone violates an agreement they have with you, you think its crying if you decide fight that violation? Explains why so many get treated the way they do. SMH.........
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post #9 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 05:15 PM
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Just wanted to make you aware that there is a difference to our corporate tax rate and the rate corporations actually pay:

Quote:
Corporate share of federal tax revenue has dropped by two-thirds in 60 years from 32% in 1952 to 10% in 2013.
General Electric, Boeing, Verizon and 23 other profitable Fortune 500 firms paid no federal income taxes from 2008 to 2012.
288 big and profitable Fortune 500 corporations paid an average effective federal tax rate of just 19.4% from 2008 to 2012.
Profitable corporations paid U.S. income taxes amounting to just 12.6% of worldwide income in 2010.
U.S. corporations dodge $90 billion a year in income taxes by shifting profits to subsidiaries often no more than post office boxes in tax havens.
U.S. corporations officially hold $2.1 trillion in profits offshore much of it in tax havens that have not yet been taxed here.
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Corporations are paying a smaller share of federal tax revenue than they did in the 1950s, dropping from one-third then to only one-tenth of the total today. Yet, an army of lobbyists is pushing hard to convince Congress to cut the corporate income tax rate by nearly one-third from the current 35% to 25%. This issue is at the epicenter of the coming battle over tax reform.

Conservatives have defined the debate in a highly misleading manner. They focus on the top statutory rate the rate specified by law instead of the effective tax rate what is actually paid. Because U.S. statutory rates are somewhat higher than other OECD countries, corporations claim that this makes them less competitive, and that it stunts job growth. But their argument is unpersuasive when the debate focuses on effective corporate tax rates.
http://www.americansfortaxfairness.o...ate-tax-rates/
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post #10 of 60 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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So if someone violates an agreement they have with you, you think its crying if you decide fight that violation? Explains why so many get treated the way they do. SMH.........
This is EXACTLY where all of the stories come from that you wish to ignore. Union workers like to think they should do ONLY what's in there contract and NOTHING more!

I'd like to file a grievance. I'd like to file a grievance I'd like to file a grievance Nope. I can't even say that with a straight face!

How much freiking time, money and PRODUCTIVITY is lost when someone needs to sniffle a little. It's called work. Get to it or get out!!!
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