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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I apologize in advance to any that may be offended,

as business owners we learn that saving money is making money. you have to remember that the companies "we" work for are also in business and are also looking to maximize profits. I'm sure most people here have some type of employees or help, some of these employees do all the work while we push papers and send in photos (among other responsibilities most employees will never understand). Yet most aren't complaining about their $10-$14 an hour. if i could get someone to do lawns for $15-$20 each and not pay them if they do it wrong or miss a photo i would do it in a second, if you don't like someones prices simply don't work for them. If someone will do the same work for a cheaper price, even if it runs them into the ground and out of business, don't complain. Thats what business/capitalism is all about. I know many of us here have raped the banks on some jobs here, i always went home with a smile after making $4k in a day but you can't expect everyday to be like that. You don't like prices? you don't like policies? you don't like your state reps? you don't like backround checks? you don't like getting backcharged? Then don't work with companies. Remember as a business owner you don't for people you work with people.

vent over
 

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my issue was never national or regional pricing..becuse if i couldnt do it i just couldnt.. but the issue with me more so was that Ive done some sub work for a few guys right off this very forum. that either refuse to pay or just want you to work for prices that dont make sense.
 

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I am always curious to see what someone is paying their own help/crews/subs when they complain about pay .... like "Oh look at this chump offering $30 for a grass cut" .... makes me wonder what they pay their own grass cutters?
 

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some will take those same $30 grass cuts and try to sub them out taking 25% off them.. it is what it is.. but some people will learn and some will spin their wheels..
 

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some of these employees do all the work while we push papers and send in photos (among other responsibilities most employees will never understand). Yet most aren't complaining about their $10-$14 an hour. if i could get someone to do lawns for $15-$20 each and not pay them if they do it wrong or miss a photo i would do it in a second, if you don't like someones prices simply don't work for them. If someone will do the same work for a cheaper price, even if it runs them into the ground and out of business, don't complain. Thats what business/capitalism is all about. I know many of us here have raped the banks on some jobs here, i always went home with a smile after making $4k in a day but you can't expect everyday to be like that. You don't like prices? you don't like policies? you don't like your state reps? you don't like backround checks? you don't like getting backcharged? Then don't work with companies. Remember as a business owner you don't for people you work with people.

vent over
Capitalism isn't about "raping" the banks. Not even close.

I don't advise working for any of the Nationals, I point out opportunities are better and more durable in the private sector. Claiming that as a business owner you are working "with" the nationals is naive.

Pushing papers and sending in pics while the employee does all the work?
Your business model seems a little different than mine.
No offense taken.
 

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re

Capitalism isn't about "raping" the banks. Not even close.

I don't advise working for any of the Nationals, I point out opportunities are better and more durable in the private sector. Claiming that as a business owner you are working "with" the nationals is naive.

Pushing papers and sending in pics while the employee does all the work?
Your business model seems a little different than mine.
No offense taken.
I think that most people like us who get stuck pushing paper and sending pics wish they didn't have to. My partner has fallen into that role and has been trying to find a way out for a couple years, but we can't find anyone who knows how to deal with the vendors as well as he does. So I call him a lot while I'm driving on a nice sunny day and he tells me to go f&&& myself.
 

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No matter what industry you are in there are these type of issues. The only problem I really have is that they say(safeguard, mcs, 5bros) if you do jobs a,b,c you must do d, and e.

D and E are not profitable I say..they say do them or you lose jobs a,b,c as well as any f, g,h jobs that come around.

Even that is understandable..if we dont want to do them ALL, they will find someone that will..its easier for them to give all jobs to one company, then split them up..

However the part that gets me in a tizzy is when they say, if you do not do jobs d and e, we will send another contractor to do the job, and then charge you back.

Thats a load of crap..if I want to turn them down and risk losing all my business then that should be my choice. I always reply with, why are you backcharging, the price you pay them would be the exact same as you will pay me..they say no cuz they have to pay the other contractor an extra "fee". BS I say..I want that extra "fee". In the end we take it up the tailpipe and do it.


But it should be(and maybe it is) illegal to chargeback an independent contractor for not accepting the job...doing the work wrong, fine charge us back..do not accept all the work, the most they should be able to do is take work away.
 

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No matter what industry you are in there are these type of issues. The only problem I really have is that they say(safeguard, mcs, 5bros) if you do jobs a,b,c you must do d, and e.

D and E are not profitable I say..they say do them or you lose jobs a,b,c as well as any f, g,h jobs that come around.

Even that is understandable..if we dont want to do them ALL, they will find someone that will..its easier for them to give all jobs to one company, then split them up..

However the part that gets me in a tizzy is when they say, if you do not do jobs d and e, we will send another contractor to do the job, and then charge you back.

Thats a load of crap..if I want to turn them down and risk losing all my business then that should be my choice. I always reply with, why are you backcharging, the price you pay them would be the exact same as you will pay me..they say no cuz they have to pay the other contractor an extra "fee". BS I say..I want that extra "fee". In the end we take it up the tailpipe and do it.


But it should be(and maybe it is) illegal to chargeback an independent contractor for not accepting the job...doing the work wrong, fine charge us back..do not accept all the work, the most they should be able to do is take work away.
it is
I'm not sure what other industry you have worked in...but there is no other industry that will demand X-amount of work and tell you there is an "allowable" every other industry there is negotiated numbers...not this one...unless of course you chose to do what our company has done and say no...then when they come calling back you get to dictate numbers...all this "well if I don't do it" CRAP attitude is how the powers to be in the industry have systematically stripped away the spirit of the independent contractor and have slowly made everyone employees...unless of course you're in the 8% that have said no....
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Capitalism isn't about "raping" the banks. Not even close.

I don't advise working for any of the Nationals, I point out opportunities are better and more durable in the private sector. Claiming that as a business owner you are working "with" the nationals is naive.

Pushing papers and sending in pics while the employee does all the work?
Your business model seems a little different than mine.
No offense taken.

while i still worked in the field when i could and if i had to, i got to the point where the office load was nearly full time. I prefer field work but its hard to find someone to do the office work and deal with supplier state reps and so forth. I'm not quite a micromanger but i prefer to do the office work myself with some part time help, that way i'm responsible if anything goes wrong invoices are incorrect or clients have questions about properties/bids. if i could just pull a 9-5?? in the field i would have.

If you are working FOR anyone then i'd rather not have your business model. Sounds like more of a job than a business.
 

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That's not true.


Look at insurance work 95% of it has set numbers using an estimating software just like the national use. A lot of insurance adjusters treat contractors just like the nationals do, in some cases even worse. Many adjusters require % kickbacks and free stuff its crazy. That industry is filled with frauds and half ass work it makes me sick think about it. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Many large company's do the same stuff, walmart uses reverse auction websites for just about every single product and service. They hold vendors to the numbers and chargeback and sue the piss out vendors every day. Do some research on US Maintenance.
I do work for 3m, and they have set prices for all work on its plants. They operate just like a national.

Don't get me wrong our industry has some issues, but I think a lot of the issues are because many business owners lack business sense and communication skills. We are in a business with very low start ups costs so we have to deal with idiots and poorly educated.






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it is
I'm not sure what other industry you have worked in...but there is no other industry that will demand X-amount of work and tell you there is an "allowable" every other industry there is negotiated numbers...not this one...unless of course you chose to do what our company has done and say no...then when they come calling back you get to dictate numbers...all this "well if I don't do it" CRAP attitude is how the powers to be in the industry have systematically stripped away the spirit of the independent contractor and have slowly made everyone employees...unless of course you're in the 8% that have said no....
 

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it is
I'm not sure what other industry you have worked in...but there is no other industry that will demand X-amount of work and tell you there is an "allowable" every other industry there is negotiated numbers...not this one...unless of course you chose to do what our company has done and say no...then when they come calling back you get to dictate numbers...all this "well if I don't do it" CRAP attitude is how the powers to be in the industry have systematically stripped away the spirit of the independent contractor and have slowly made everyone employees...unless of course you're in the 8% that have said no....
There may be no industry that is "exactly" the same..but the same type of stuff happens everywhere.

I do some accounting work on the side for a local produce marketer. He buys and sells vegetables, and calls his own trucks to haul them.

He has certain truckers with a designated route at a low price that he sets. It is lower than what he would give 1 truck for a one time haul..but they get a guaranteed weekly run from Florida to New York for $2200. They can say no, I want the $3000 that you gave the other guy, and he then tells them no, and pulls all the routes from them.

Even when he "negotiates" with other trucking companies, he sets his price at $3000..at its take it or leave it.


Same thing with produce. When he sells cabbage to customer A, customer A says I am paying 8 cents a pound. The farmer says it costs me 9 cents to disc, plant, fertilize, water, pick, pack, load, unload, cool, reload, and ship.

Customer A says too bad..you can lose 1 cent selling to me, or 9 cents and not sell it at all.

If the owner says ill take the 9 cent loss, customer A may never call again.


Like I said before..I don't think them setting a price is wrong, or any different than any other industry.

However, charging us back for not accepting work is bogus.
 

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You are all missing 1 very vital point....

Free trade.

Ins companies do use a standardized estimating software (xactimate) BUT NO contractor has to settle on the estimating softwares amount...its only an estimate and can only be used to agree upon a scope of work.

Farmer at $.9/pd. He could sell at $.8/pd and take the $.1/pd loss BUT then they collect from the CRC for the shortage PLUS the P&O so they come out fine. OR better yet tell the cheap azz buyer to stuff sand and find a new buyer! I have found that free trade is a great thing-- if nobody sells to cheap azz buyer than cheap azz buyer closes or raises his purchasing prices.
 

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I'm sorry, but creating a chargeback for refusing a work order is illegal....ask your attorney...
They can not tell you if yo don't do something we will bill you for it...
This is one of the many
systematic" conditioning issues that everyone has fallen into...
While we will never work for the siblings ever again this is what they attempted to do to us because we refused to do a job WE WERE NOT PROPERLY LICENSED to do and told them they would have to find someone else to assist...they attempted to back charge us...when I showed the courts all the emails and paperwork and our refusal the lien was slapped on the property and we were issued the monies the attempted to extort from us,,
That what it is called extortion.....wake up people....

Elements of Offense

Virtually all extortion statutes require that a threat must be made to the person or property of the victim. Threats to harm the victim's friends or relatives may also be included. It is not necessary for a threat to involve physical injury. It may be sufficient to threaten to accuse another person of a crime or to expose a secret that would result in public embarrassment or ridicule. The threat does not have to relate to an unlawful act. Extortion may be carried out by a threat to tell the victim's spouse that the victim is having an illicit sexual affair with another.

Other types of threats sufficient to constitute extortion include those to harm the victim's business and those to either testify against the victim or withhold testimony necessary to his or her defense or claim in an administrative proceeding or a lawsuit. Many statutes also provide that any threat to harm another person in his or her career or reputation is extortion.

Under the common law and many statutes, an intent to take money or property to which one is not lawfully entitled must exist at the time of the threat in order to establish extortion. Statutes may contain words such as "willful" or "purposeful" in order to indicate the intent element. When this is so, someone who mistakenly believes he or she is entitled to the money or property cannot be guilty of extortion. Some statutes, however, provide that any unauthorized taking of money by an officer constitutes extortion. Under these statutes, a person may be held strictly liable for the act, and an intent need not be proven to establish the crime.

Statutes governing extortion by private persons vary in content. Many hold that a threat accompanied by the intent to acquire the victim's property is sufficient to establish the crime; others require that the property must actually be acquired as a result of the threat. Extortion by officials is treated similarly. Some statutes hold that the crime occurs when there is a meeting of the minds between the officer and the party from whom the money is exacted.
 

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You are all missing 1 very vital point....

Free trade.

Ins companies do use a standardized estimating software (xactimate) BUT NO contractor has to settle on the estimating softwares amount...its only an estimate and can only be used to agree upon a scope of work.

Farmer at $.9/pd. He could sell at $.8/pd and take the $.1/pd loss BUT then they collect from the CRC for the shortage PLUS the P&O so they come out fine. OR better yet tell the cheap azz buyer to stuff sand and find a new buyer! I have found that free trade is a great thing-- if nobody sells to cheap azz buyer than cheap azz buyer closes or raises his purchasing prices.


No contractor has to use the estimating software, but if thats all a client is willing to pay, they either do it, or not..there is no haggling when someone is right behind you is willing to do the work.


As for the farming issue, Im not sure what CRC is..I know he files for CPS(crop protection) as well as government funded grants which he would get whether he sold it for 2 cents, 8 cents, or 99 cents.

As for telling the "cheap azz buyer" to go stuff sand, he will find another supplier, and then when other prices come down and farmer is able to harvest for 4 cents, and the "cheap azz buyer" is now buying somewhere else, you just gave up nearly $2000 a load.(44,000*.04).

The worst is when the market for vegetable crashes while on route. You think you are getting 18 cents a pound, but it gets to the customer and the customer gets wind of a crashing market he will turn away the truck. Even with a signed contract. Its usually not worth the expense to go to court. The buyer who buys for 8 cents will never turn away a load..even if he can buy it for 6 cents elsewhere.


Free trade is a valid point..but it is free on the other side as well.


I have never actually been charged back for declining work..but I have been threatened...and I cant afford to give up work when I'm on their radar for completing a certain job.
 

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I'm sorry, but creating a chargeback for refusing a work order is illegal....ask your attorney...


Got a chargeback notice once from Safeguard on a work order almost two years old. They sent the work order with no name, an outdated box number in the middle of nowhere. I checked my sign on the door and it didn't mention "private detective" anywhere. They had no other info, lender had no other info. We informed them to get back with us when they could give us a little more to go on.
Glad someone else found the place but it wasn't on my dime. Our attorney had no trouble with that one.
 

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Real Estate, but I use him for everything from wills, contracts, setting up corps/LLCs, to legal issues with my guys. He is part of a firm so if he doesn't do it, it goes to someone who does. Flat fee per month and I can call or stop by anytime he isn't in court. He had no trouble mainly because we didn't do business with them at that point. He followed up and made sure they understood it would be a waste of time to come after us for something so ridiculous.
 

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You guys can also use the Istar system for tracking and logging these issues...
Foreclosurepedia has been putting a list together so a "pattern" or "MO" if you will can be shown to the courts and higher ups in the food chain...

I encourage everyone to submit info when these types charge backs happen...they are crap...

IMHO...

EXTORTION....
 
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